(4) failed case under TN-Engineer TN Approval for Economist despite Three Prior Refusals – A Case of Mistaken TN Category. -maomaowang(maomaowang) @安省华人论坛:安省枫下论坛 The Rolia Forum of Ontario

枫下茶话 / 美国话题 / 求助: 13年Software Development 工作经验，但是教育背景是Mechanical Engineer.公司想帮我申请为 TN - Engineer 类，但是Job Title 是Sr Computer System Analyst，有多少成功把握? -maomaowang(maomaowang); 2009-6-15 {163} (#5343152@0)
13年Software Development 工作经验，但是教育背景是Mechanical Engineer.公司想帮我申请为 TN - Engineer 类，但是Job Title 是Sr Computer System Analyst，有多少成功把握?

Don't mix engineer with computer system analyst. Software engineer requires a computer degree however, computer system analyst doesn't but you need experience to back it up. -kwirky(kwirky); 2009-6-15 (#5344411@0)

Thanks Kwirky. I have done a lot of researches and it seems that you are right. -maomaowang(maomaowang); 2009-6-16 (#5347026@0)

I copied a few cases collected from internet here and hopefully others may benefit. (1)TN Visa Approval: Computer Systems Analyst - Despite Previous Denials for Lack of Computer Science Degree. -maomaowang(maomaowang); 2009-6-16 {3128} (#5347041@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛Job Offer:
Large IT staffing firm offering data processing support, including consulting and technical support, systems engineering, software design, database management, business analysis, and systems development. Applicant would primarily be responsible for the development, design, analysis, testing and maintenance of clients’ Content Management Systems.
Prior History:
The IT firm had previously filed three TN visa applications for the Applicant under the Computer Systems Analyst category, which U.S. immigration approved without complication. The staffing firm then filed a fourth TN visa application under the Computer Systems Analyst category for the very same position. The POE denied this application contending that because the Applicant did not possess a computer science degree, she could not qualify for the Computer Systems Analyst category. CBP referred the Applicant to a TN “specialist” at another POE. This officer refused the TN on the same basis. The Applicant then hired our firm to determine whether we could rehabilitate her case.
Our Analysis:
We repeatedly see TN denials under the Computer Systems Analyst category where CBP denies an application merely because the applicant does not possess a degree specifically in computer science. There is no basis for this interpretation under NAFTA TN regulations (See Computer Systems Analyst TN Requirements) or secondary authorities! Legacy INS Memoranda and the Occupational Outlook Handbook provide that an individual may qualify for a Computer Systems Analyst TN based on possession of a related degree, the completion of computer related coursework, and industry related experience.
As provided in the legacy INS , Michael Cronin, July 24, 2000 , Memorandum on adjudication of NAFTA applications, the Hotel Manager is the only TN category that requires a specific degree or post-secondary diploma under the NAFTA TN regulations. No other TN category requires a specific degree. According to the Cronin Memo, all that is required is that “[t]he degree should be in the field or in a closely related field. Officers should use good judgment in determining whether a degree in an allied field may be appropriate.” Furthermore, the OOH definition for Computer Systems Analyst specifically states that individuals with non-computer-science degrees, regardless of their major, will qualify for Computer Systems Analyst positions provided they have completed related coursework.
How We Obtained an Approval:
In a separate legal memorandum, we utilized the Cronin Memo and OOH materials to support our argument that the Applicant’s Communication, Culture, and Information Technology degree was sufficiently related and well suited for a position as a Computer Systems Analyst. We highlighted the computer systems and information technology courses the Applicant completed through the course of her degree program. Last, we pointed out that the Applicant had supplemented her formal education with related, practical experience, including three prior Computer Systems Analyst TN approvals for the same company and for the very same position.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
(2)Computer Systems Analyst TN Approved Despite Lack of Computer Science Degree. -maomaowang(maomaowang); 2009-6-16 {1492} (#5347046@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛In this case, our client had a job opportunity to do computer systems analyst work for a mortgage lender providing retail, wholesale and correspondent lending products and services. Our client possessed an MBA degree and a Bachelor of Business Management degree. We based his TN application for a Computer Systems Analyst based on the computer systems and business computing coursework that he completed through his MBA and Bachelor of Business Management degree programs.
We supported our argument with specific reference to the Occupational Outlook Handbook, which provides guidance on the qualifications required for a Computer Systems Analyst. According to the OOH, companies increasingly look for professionals with a broad background and range of skills. For example, “[f]or jobs in a business environment, employers usually want systems analysts to have business management or closely related skills.”
In addition, the OOH states that “[e]mployers are increasingly seeking individuals with a master’s degree in business administration (MBA), with a concentration in information systems, as more firms move their business to the Internet.” Individuals who can combine business skills with strong technical skills will qualify for work as a Computer Systems Analyst: “graduates with non-computer-science degrees, but who have had courses in computer programming, systems analysis, and other information technology subjects, also should continue to find jobs in computer fields.”更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
(3) Computer Systems Analyst TN Approval Despite Non-Computer Science Degree. -maomaowang(maomaowang); 2009-6-16 {1987} (#5347049@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛The TN petitioner in this case was an information technology consulting firm that required an individual to provide computer and management information technology system analysis and solutions to its client in the health care industry. The individual would be responsible for analyzing, defining, developing and testing client computer business and management information technology systems in order to improve overall processes and production. The TN applicant possessed a Master of Science degree in Health Care Policy and Management and also had over five (5) years experience in the health care industry providing business data analysis and processes solutions, including two-and-a-half (2.5) years experience in database system analysis, development and testing for the health care industry.
The TN petition first brought this case to the border without attorney representation and CBP denied the application. The inspecting officer concluded that the applicant’s degree in Health Care Policy and Management did not qualify her for a TN as a Computer Systems Analyst. The TN applicant then retained our firm to rehabilitate this case. After our review, we concluded that the applicant’s Master of Science degree in Health Care Policy and Management was well suited for a Computer Systems Analyst’s position. The applicant’s education, which included course work in Introduction to Database Management Systems, Information Communication Technologies, Health Care Information Systems, Database Management Systems, Systems Synthesis, and Health Care Geographic Information Systems, provided her with the theoretical foundation necessary to comprehend and resolve the computer systems and information technology problems involved in this position.
After revising the applicant’s TN application and providing sufficient evidence to support our argument that the applicant’s degree was well suited for the position, CBP approved the applicant’s TN for a Computer Systems Analyst.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
(4) failed case under TN-Engineer TN Approval for Economist despite Three Prior Refusals – A Case of Mistaken TN Category. -maomaowang(maomaowang); 2009-6-16 {2330} (#5347053@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛Job Offer:
An IT staffing firm desired to place TN Visa Applicant with health car provider as an Economist where Applicant would be responsible for performing econometrics and statistical research and analysis, and economic health data modeling and reporting.
Prior History:
The IT firm had previously filed two TN applications for the Applicant under the Computer Systems Analyst category, which U.S. immigration approved without complication. The staffing firm then filed a TN visa application for the Applicant as an Engineer (Software). The POE denied this application because the Applicant did not possess a computer science degree. The IT firm then applied for a TN for the Applicant’s original position under the Computer Systems Analyst classification. The POE did not issue the TN and referred the Applicant to the Pearson PFI. The PFI would not overrule the POE’s decision to refuse to issue a TN. The Applicant then hired our firm to evaluate his case for a new job opportunity offered by the IT firm.
Our Analysis:
Although originally approved, the IT firm improperly categorized the Applicant’s prior TN applications. Although the Applicant’s job duties did involve some computer work, his principle job duties more properly fell under the occupation of an Economist. The Applicant utilizes sophisticated software programs, such as Statistical Analysis System (“SAS”) programs, to perform his economic research and analysis. These job duties more properly fall within the scope of an Economist. The Applicant’s work does not involve job duties normally undertaken by a Computer Systems Analyst or Engineer (Software).
How We Obtained an Approval:
We explained to the POE that the IT firm had improperly categorized the previous TN applications under the Computer Systems Analyst and Engineer (Software) TN categories. While the Applicant’s work did involve some computer work, his principle duties were those of an Economist.
We explained that the Applicant had a new job offer for a position that also fell under the Economist occupational category. We outlined that the Applicant qualified for this TN category based on his possession of a Master of Science degree in Economics and his over twelve years experience providing economic research and analysis in the healthcare and financial industries.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

This case validates kwirky's point. -maomaowang(maomaowang); 2009-6-16 {3514} (#5347113@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛For non-Software Engineer/Science education backgrounds, TN-Engineer with job title software related will be considered as Software Engineer, thus requires "Software Engineer" or "Software Science" Degree. However, "Computer Systems Analyst" allows broader education backgrounds. From Occupational Outlook Handbook (OOH) NAFTA Officer refers,

Training, Other Qualifications, and Advancement

Training requirements for computer systems analysts vary depending on the job, but many employers prefer applicants who have a bachelor’s degree. Relevant work experience also is very important. Advancement opportunities are good for those with the necessary skills and experience.

Education and training. When hiring computer systems analysts, employers usually prefer applicants who have at least a bachelor’s degree. For more technically complex jobs, people with graduate degrees are preferred.

The level and type of education that employers require reflects changes in technology. Employers often scramble to find workers capable of implementing the newest technologies. Workers with formal education or experience in information security, for example, are currently in demand because of the growing use of computer networks, which must be protected from threats.

For jobs in a technical or scientific environment, employers often seek applicants who have at least a bachelor’s degree in a technical field, such as computer science, information science, applied mathematics, engineering, or the physical sciences. For jobs in a business environment, employers often seek applicants with at least a bachelor’s degree in a business-related field such as management information systems (MIS). Increasingly, employers are seeking individuals who have a master’s degree in business administration (MBA) with a concentration in information systems.

Despite the preference for technical degrees, however, people who have degrees in other majors may find employment as systems analysts if they also have technical skills. Courses in computer science or related subjects combined with practical experience can qualify people for some jobs in the occupation.

Employers generally look for people with expertise relevant to the job. For example, systems analysts who wish to work for a bank should have some expertise in finance, and systems analysts who wish to work for a hospital should have some knowledge of health management.

Technological advances come so rapidly in the computer field that continuous study is necessary to remain competitive. Employers, hardware and software vendors, colleges and universities, and private training institutions offer continuing education to help workers attain the latest skills. Additional training may come from professional development seminars offered by professional computing societies.

Other qualifications. Employers usually look for people who have broad knowledge and experience related to computer systems and technologies, strong problem-solving and analytical skills, and the ability to think logically. In addition, because they often deal with a number of tasks simultaneously, the ability to concentrate and pay close attention to detail is important. Although these workers sometimes work independently, they frequently work in teams on large projects. Therefore, they must have good interpersonal skills and be able to communicate effectively with computer personnel, users, and other staff who may have no technical background.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

From my experience, you don't need a degree in CS. -wincity(toad); 2009-6-16 (#5347075@0)

from your experience, what specifically did CBP look for, if not CS degree, when approving CSA applications? thanks! -into(into); 2009-6-16 (#5347266@0)

I don't know. I guess experience counts. -wincity(toad); 2009-6-16 (#5347624@0)

thanks. did you need to provide proof of relevant experience, e.g. reference letters? -into(into); 2009-6-16 (#5347855@0)

I didn't. Just the resume. -wincity(toad); 2009-6-16 (#5348098@0)

are you working with a company in-house lawyer? -into(into); 2009-6-16 (#5347268@0)

The company has an immigration lawyer and wrote the letter like this: TN- Engineer, in-house title Sr Computer Systems Analyst. The letter is very professional but I am still worried she doesn't know this complication. -maomaowang(maomaowang); 2009-6-19 {425} (#5357877@0)
The company has an immigration lawyer and wrote the letter like this: TN- Engineer, in-house title Sr Computer Systems Analyst. The letter is very professional but I am still worried she doesn't know this complication.

I just sent the company a modified version to make it under TN-Computer Systems Analyst and now under her review. I hope she'd be on the same page.

I am going to apply TN next week and wish me luck.

@Ontario

(4) failed case under TN-Engineer TN Approval for Economist despite Three Prior Refusals – A Case of Mistaken TN Category.

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