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If considered bonus and other potential opportunities, it will become more complicated. But let's try

本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛1. All contractors(exempted employees) will have no other opportunities besides their hourly rate: no bonus, no training, no options, no promotion. And it's not always paid 40 hours/week. That's why 50/hour != 100K. 70K is more reasonable if their contracts are continuous.

2. Employee of IPOed company, such as Microsoft, CISCO, GOOGLE. There're 2 biggest parts: bonus and granted shares.

Google will give out 1000 shares in 5 year, which worths 380K. i.e. Additional 79K every years. That's why google's base salary is only 80K-90K in SV, but people are still going there.

On the other hand, Microsoft seems too stingy. It only gives 250 shares in 5 years, it worths $1100/year.

Bonus is based on performance of the company, team and individual. Unless it's a constantly issued, such as Adobe, we should not treat it as regular income.

Investment banks in NYC is a special cases. They tend to give large bonus upon base salary. So this kind of bonus should be counted as "regular income". I.E their base salary should be adjusted higher when doing comparasion.

This is a little bit similar like the "13 months pay" in china. Since it's too common, I would rather count it into regular income.

Personaly, I don't like getting paid by bonus. If it is my income, I always face the risk of losing part of it. For example, if I have to leave the company for a better career, I will probably lose a certain amount of bonus unless I leave the 2nd day after issued bonus.

Bonus as a floating salary only gives employers more handles to control employees. It has no good for employee.

3. Employee of some company can get 2 other benefits related with shares:
1) Stock option. You have the right to use the price of the day you join company to purchase shares in 5 years. Currently, for most of companies, it means nothing. It's no longer attractive. That's why companies began to grant shares directly.
2) Enjoy a discounted price of shares every quater. It did not play enough role either.

4. Employ of un-IPOed companies:
1) they can have bonus too. Again, unless it's constantly issued, we should be counted it in.
2) The biggest benefit is their stock option. If it goes IPO or purchased by an IPOed company, everyone can get a big money. However, it's more like a bet. We have much more chances to lose than to win.

5. Vacations and working hours
This will give us another dimension, i.e. $/hour to measure our income even as a permanent employee. Some companies are very pushing and have long working hours. This will reduce its actually value based on hourly rate.

6. Training or promotion:
It's an important part of career too. However, it will just add weigh to some alternatives. It's hard to quantitize it into money value.更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
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Replies, comments and Discussions:

  • 枫下茶话 / 美国话题 / 请问TN签证在加州工作,安省G牌驾照,SSN正在申请中,该如何得到加州驾照?可以用安省驾照直接换吗?另外安省的全科证书需不需要带过去?另外在加州Fremont找房子,有没有什么找房网站?谢谢!
    • 加拿大驾照换加州的必须考笔试和路试
      • 不是换, 就是必须重考. 加拿大的没收走.
        • 有的驾照被打孔了
        • 如果要收走或者打孔,然后还要重考,那为什么要出示加拿大驾照?直接去考一个可以吗?
          • 只笔试的话,你只能拿到PERMIT, 你没法独立开车啊, 你要是有驾照会给你一张临时的可一自己开.然后考路考就可拿驾照了
    • 找房看craigslist 吧. 我也就知道这一个. 或SF 的世界日报? 你是去了没? 当地物价如何?
    • Do you mean that you applied for the SSN before you go to Califonia? If so, can you please show us how to do? Thanks a lot.
      • up
        • 我在下面已经说了,就是拿到I-94后,就开车过去找个local SSA office 申请 SSN。
    • Welcom to Fremont, I am living Fremont too. you may use www.craigslist.org and Local housing/apartment ad. Living expense is very low here. Everything is wonderful here except for lacking friends come from Canada.
      • Fremont 也算Bay Area 吧, 东西有那么便宜么?
        • yes. the living expense is similar with Toronto. But compare to your income in Canada, it's cheap.
          • 我记得在Rolia上有人说多伦多6万加元年薪等于硅谷12万美元年薪,是真的吗?
            • It depends, considering house, it is. if just want to make money, Silicon Valley is the best place. expecially for IT.
          • I don't think Fremont is very cheap. Compare with san jose, santa clara , it is cheaper. there are so many chinese around bay area. you can meet some friends on www.bayareadragon.com
            • 我觉得除了房子,其他都比多伦多便宜。
              • 我没感觉到便宜啊,吃的不比多伦多便宜,而且也没有多伦多的新鲜, 饭店也都很一般了.只是因为税少了好多. 当然电器那些是便宜好多.
                • 绝对值比多伦多贵点,可是收入高呀。相对来说应该还是便宜吧? 当然,我在两地住的时间都不长,了解得也许片面些。好像房租比多伦多便宜吧?我记得一个同事租个两室好像才800还是900着。
                  • 我还是感觉按绝对值比较更为客观。
                    • 那工资也得按绝对值比呀。
                      • 对。
                  • 问题是多伦多的收入是多少? 那边的收入又是多少?
                    本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛含含糊糊地暗示那边的工资比多伦多高很多. 其实根本没那回事.

                    别说加州一般地方现在大致只有8万左右. 9万都不好找. (非特殊情况, 也不讨论contractor). 硅谷不过10万, 还不容易拿到.

                    再去掉一个误导的信息, 比如一个工作号称可以给出工资水平在7-9万的话, 那要以面试后的真正offer为准. 许多人为了自己的需要故意夸大美国的工资水平.

                    西雅图拿到8万, 比如在微软, 就都算给得不错的了.

                    加洲的税是较高的. 西雅图少一个收入税, 所以, 很多人觉得那边更实惠.

                    contractor的工资水平差距很大. 能听到拿100以上的事, 但是, 一般人能拿到50-60也就算不错的了. 而且, $50/hr绝不等于10万年薪. 在加拿大也许等于7万, 在美国就更少了, 因为自己要付医疗保险. 这笔钱大致在每月$500-800. 当然, 我知道在这种情况下, 大家很可能不会去买这个医疗保险. 但这也不能把这笔省出来的钱算成正常收入.

                    美国的工资在泡沫破后, 下调了20%左右, 现在才刚刚回涨了一些.

                    刚才说的都是base salary. 有些人喜欢把bonus, 股票等收益都算成自己的收入, 以此证明自己钱拿得多. 这也有一定的合理性. 但是, 我们既然比工资, 那就先只说工资.

                    我刚才说的工资水平是指我们加拿大人过去, 拿TN去找工作的情况下能拿到的工资水平. 按这个角度看, 我们会惊奇地发现美国工资一点都不高.

                    我们同样不能用当地人, 在公司工作了多年的工资水平来作为参照, 因为那不是我们能拿到的钱.

                    美国的工资还有一个特点, 就是大公司都给钱少. 普遍低于市场行情. 比如HP, CISCO, GOOGLE等. 当然google给股票. 所以, 还有很多人去.

                    现在说说多伦多的工资.

                    6万是很常见的. 在有专业工作的人群中, 也许比加州的8万还普遍. 我不同意多伦多的6万等于硅谷的12万的说法. 要考虑房子的因素, 那只能考虑租房的因素. 加州, 甚至硅谷租房并不是那么贵. 差距没有买房的价格大.

                    如果在硅谷真能拿到12万, 那肯定比加拿大的6万好多了.

                    多伦多有很多很好的东西. 不过, 我也确实发现多伦多, 乃至加拿大的除住房外的生活费用其实相当高. 加拿大有的一些便宜东西和服务是因为华人圈激烈的竞争造成的.更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
                    • 老天, 你又灌了这么大一桶水啊.. :) 不过我觉得你的每个帖说的都挺实在的. 找不出我可以反对的地方..呵呵.
                    • 加拿大6万,比硅谷8万更普遍吗?感觉硅谷8万以上的很多,多伦多6万以上的不多呀。我一群同学就一个。
                      • 还有就是美国的公司一般可以给到我8万,怎么多伦多找个5万的都没人理我?
                        • 这不能说明多伦多的工资低, 而只能说明这边工作市场差, 难找.
                          我们经常发现, 同样一个人, 做同样的事, 在不同的地方, 不同的公司, 待遇有很大差别. 比如, 现在那么多做10-20/hour的假contractor工的人, 难道他们比在同一个公司里挣7-8万的人做的事差, 没价值吗? 非也.

                          很多时候, 就是市场造成的. 比如, 现在很多人desparately找工作, 10块/hour的软件编程也去干,还抢,从老板的角度, 他会出更多的钱吗? 我要是老板, 5万都太多了. 出4万就有无数的人要来争这份工. 这其实也是我对多伦多失望而离开的一个重要原因. 这种现象在多伦多特别严重. 温哥华都不这样.
                      • 如果这样, 那到美国自然有较多的惊喜了. 问题是, 我周围的大多数人都在8万加元年薪上下. 7万以下的好象没有, 要么就是没工作的.
                        硅谷8万以上的是很多. 要低于这个数, 日子就很难了.而要是没工作, 根本在那里呆不住, 很快就消失了. 所以, 你满眼看去, 人人都在8万以上.

                        但是多伦多不同, 很多人几年没有专业工作, 或当所谓的volunteer, co-op, 或很低薪(10-20/hour)的"contractor", 干几年的都有. 所以, 我们容易产生错觉, 以为在多伦多的人收入低.
                        • 圈子不同呀。你的圈子在加拿大应该也算最高的了。竟然7万以下都没见过。我是7万以上都没见过。呵呵。
                          另外,你觉得硅谷生存要比多伦多大很多吧。也就是说能力要求要高很多。如果没有能力,很难混下去。所以,是不是能力一般的多伦多更合适,如果能力真的很强,还是应该去硅谷呢?毕竟多伦多的大公司太少了,尖端科技也太少了。我碰到一个ATI的manager就一直后悔当时没去硅谷。
                          • 不对, 我觉得, 在加拿大职场生存比任何美国地方都难. 所以, 我去美国了.
                            本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛大家总以为硅谷, 纽约是一个著名的"拼"的地方,所以肯定生存压力大.对能在那里找到工作并生存下来的人总是抱着一种仰视的态度.

                            我一直以来也是如此, 直到我真正地去了一趟纽约和硅谷.才发现正好相反.

                            这两个地方都是著名的好找工作的地方, 一个工作特别好找的地方,当员工的日子就差不到哪里去.因为实在不行,随时可以跳槽去别的地方.这两个地方虽然工资高,但做的事也就那些.无非是写同样一行程序的工资给得高了.

                            确实经常听说这两个地方经常逼人加班.但是,任何地方都有逼人加班的公司和正常的公司.问题是它们拿什么手段逼人加班,才使得员工的感觉完全不同.

                            比如有些工作不好找的州(我的一个朋友的亲身经历),人家就是一种恩赐的眼光来看待员工,觉得给你工作了,你就得给我当奴隶.所以,明着说,我给你6.5万(比当地其他工作高),就要你每周工作55小时以上.而且3年不加工资.还有的是拿办绿卡压人.

                            加拿大很多公司也是拿job security压人拼命干活.摆出一副,你不卖命有的是人来为更少的钱,而更卖命.事实也是如此,我当时干活,周围两三个拿$10/hour的人在"帮"我.公司让我教他们,把活尽量分给他们去做.然后给我压更多的工作量.这些$10/hour的人为了所谓的加拿大经验,干得比我卖力多了.

                            因为工作不好找,裁员也显得更可怕.

                            硅谷,纽约等地主要是拿经济手段"诱"人卖命. 或者是高达工资100%以上的bonus(纽约的一些银行), 或者是股票上市的可能性(硅谷). 使得很多人明明不高兴,不想那么累,却"舍不得"跳槽. 这和忍气吞声不敢跳槽是两码事. 差别就有"奴隶社会"和"资本主义社会"那么大. 当然,毅然走掉的也不少.

                            我上次去硅谷,到了这个当时以为仰之弥高的地方,发现以下事实:
                            1) 我当时在加拿大的工作量比我大多数硅谷同学都辛苦, 而且我们的管理模式和他们几乎一样.
                            2) 我的工资和他们有50-60%差距,尽管我在加拿大拿的也算高薪(当然我也意识到,我来硅谷,一时是不可能达到他们的工资)
                            3) 在硅谷, 只要有身份, 没听说谁半年以上找不到工作的. 一般2-3个月.
                            4) 房价虽高, 但租金比多伦多仅高30%.

                            那次, 我一回加拿大,就开始琢磨去美国了, 后来也终于来了.的确,以我们各自的收入分别在当地生活, 似乎生活水平相差不大, 我在多伦多30万的房, 在硅谷要卖80万,这也就是多伦多6万等于硅谷12万的由来. 但是,我一想人也是流动的. 就算我们平时都把钱用完了,最后,他们供完了一套80万的房, 而我供完了一套30万的房. 假如我们都去另一个地方, 比如另一个州, 或中国, 那他们带的是80万美元, 而我只带着30万加元.这就是区别.何况, 在表面上的"生活差不多"下, 我也明显的注意到他们很多方面比我经济宽得多.

                            比如他们有两辆新车(其一是宝马), 我只有一辆二手日本车.
                            他们经常回中国, 我舍不得花机票.
                            他们请人来搞院子,我什么都只有自己搞.
                            他们的房子装修普遍比加拿大好,想想也是,80万的房子, 拍出2万去装修,在房价的比例很低.
                            他们给小孩报了各种班,尽管多伦多同样的班便宜,我也只报了2个.
                            他们每年去旅游N次,都是几天在外过夜的. 我的旅游一般都是自己开车, 当天来回的.

                            顺便说一下, 我不认为我的圈子在加拿大是什么高收入阶层. 他们也和我一样, 过着这种省吃俭用的日子.8万在加拿大也只是过得稍宽而已.我当然知道拿6万以下的人很多.特别是近年找到工作的新移民.

                            所以,我们都成了"美国话题"的常客啊! 而你不了成功地拿到微软8万的工作了吗? 祝贺你脱离一个苦海.更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
                            • 谢谢你的强贴。从你对事物的分析,看得出你是个头脑非常清楚的人。也感谢你这么有耐性给我们后来人讲解。我也是正在感受的人,你的体会对我帮助很大,非常客观。
                    • 分析得有条有理, 赞一个先! 不过, 光比较BASE SALARY本身是有所偏颇的. 我认为, BONOUS, STOCK OPTION等BENEFITS是应该考虑在里面的. 道理和不能把不买医疗保险省下来的钱算为正常收入一样.
                      • If considered bonus and other potential opportunities, it will become more complicated. But let's try
                        本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛1. All contractors(exempted employees) will have no other opportunities besides their hourly rate: no bonus, no training, no options, no promotion. And it's not always paid 40 hours/week. That's why 50/hour != 100K. 70K is more reasonable if their contracts are continuous.

                        2. Employee of IPOed company, such as Microsoft, CISCO, GOOGLE. There're 2 biggest parts: bonus and granted shares.

                        Google will give out 1000 shares in 5 year, which worths 380K. i.e. Additional 79K every years. That's why google's base salary is only 80K-90K in SV, but people are still going there.

                        On the other hand, Microsoft seems too stingy. It only gives 250 shares in 5 years, it worths $1100/year.

                        Bonus is based on performance of the company, team and individual. Unless it's a constantly issued, such as Adobe, we should not treat it as regular income.

                        Investment banks in NYC is a special cases. They tend to give large bonus upon base salary. So this kind of bonus should be counted as "regular income". I.E their base salary should be adjusted higher when doing comparasion.

                        This is a little bit similar like the "13 months pay" in china. Since it's too common, I would rather count it into regular income.

                        Personaly, I don't like getting paid by bonus. If it is my income, I always face the risk of losing part of it. For example, if I have to leave the company for a better career, I will probably lose a certain amount of bonus unless I leave the 2nd day after issued bonus.

                        Bonus as a floating salary only gives employers more handles to control employees. It has no good for employee.

                        3. Employee of some company can get 2 other benefits related with shares:
                        1) Stock option. You have the right to use the price of the day you join company to purchase shares in 5 years. Currently, for most of companies, it means nothing. It's no longer attractive. That's why companies began to grant shares directly.
                        2) Enjoy a discounted price of shares every quater. It did not play enough role either.

                        4. Employ of un-IPOed companies:
                        1) they can have bonus too. Again, unless it's constantly issued, we should be counted it in.
                        2) The biggest benefit is their stock option. If it goes IPO or purchased by an IPOed company, everyone can get a big money. However, it's more like a bet. We have much more chances to lose than to win.

                        5. Vacations and working hours
                        This will give us another dimension, i.e. $/hour to measure our income even as a permanent employee. Some companies are very pushing and have long working hours. This will reduce its actually value based on hourly rate.

                        6. Training or promotion:
                        It's an important part of career too. However, it will just add weigh to some alternatives. It's hard to quantitize it into money value.更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
                        • Good and complete analysis! Thanks a lot.
    • 多谢楼上的各位。我是在Detroit申请TN,然后就直接申请SSN,现在SSN还没拿到。请问在SSN没拿到的情况下,能去考驾照吗?
      • SSN一般两周左右就可以拿到。等一等吧!
      • 在加州,没有SSN也能去考驾照,但要提供没有资格拿到SSN的证明。
      • 申请完TN就申请SSN没问题,是吗?以前有人说不行呀。
        • 我的朋友也这样做,但SSN申请没被接受。但我的就被接受了,告诉要等2周。大概不同的办事员处理方式不同吧。
          • 我也试试,谢谢。detroit拿TN容易吗?我准备去sarnia,听说简单。
            • 我办的时候,什么都没问,就是把公司给我准备好的材料交上去,还有学历证书原件,然后就等,然后就留指纹,快照,拿I-94。
              • 指纹?
              • 第一次听说申请TN还要留指纹。多谢!
                • it's not true.
                  • why?
        • NO PROBELM