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  • 最优利率和cashback可以申请特批,好信用好收入offer更好。请点链接扫码加微信咨询,Scotiabank -- Nick Zhang 6478812600。

let me teach you something:

本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛Q1. We only invest in government bonds, which are safe and guaranteed. ==> Only the bond principal and interest is guaranteed - do not confuse with the total investment return. You still face interest rate risk. When interest rates go up (now it is nearly zero, the only way it can go is UP), bond fund will lose money. If interest rate stay the same (stay low at current level), you cannot have a high return.

A1:The pooled RESP is not only invest in government bonds, other choices are: (1)Debt securities(20% max in Variable Rate Securiteis) issued or guaranteed by government; (2) First Mortgates (3) Government T_Bill; (4) GIC; (5) Debt securities by AAA Public Corporations.

**************** all of these are debt securities, they belong to the same asset class and they perform in a similar way ******************

Don’t understand why bond fund will lose money, after interest goes up. The interest rate was mostly up in the past 30 years.

**************** this is basic financial knowledge, here is a simple example. say you bought a 5% 10-year bond at a price of 100 today. one year later interest rate goes to 10%. your 5% bond (9 years now) will be worth less than 100. why? because with 100 people can buy a new 10% bond, which retuens them 10 each year instead of 5... see, you have a lot lot to learn if you don't even understand this. pooled resp salespeople are not well trained at all. *******************

Q2. We have over 10% historical return. ==> That return has to be put into the historical context - In the 80s interest rates were over 10%. Now it is way lower. The historical performance is also partly due to the number of drop-outs from the pool. If I take the CESG grant of 400 into the picture, and if I invest 2000 per year, I get 20% automatically. No bond investments can beat 20%.

A2:You are correct: (1)over 10% is just a Historical return, and nobody (unless he lies) can guarantee the return of the investment, except GIC; and (2)No bond investments can beat 20%.

Q3. We are non-profit. ==> That doesn't mean you are efficient. Typically, non-profit organisations are not as efficient as private entities.

A3: Do you know how much the CEO gets from the company? In some dot com companies, they take as much as 50% of the profit into their own pocket. And it’s legal --by law.

In this non-profit Foundation, all the Chairman and Directors are volunteers, they don’t get a cent from the parents.

My personal guess is that they are already rich enough, and don’t care about the money. Same reason applies for those donations, which Chinese people don’t understand at all.

************* the volunteers are not involved in the investment decision process. in a non-profit, investment managers get poorly paid. you don't attract top talent with low salary. mediocre people produce mediocre results. i'm not saying the dot-comers are good, but talented people will demand higher pay. *************

Q4. Please clarify the following:

A4: Sure, here they are:

-If my child doesn't go to a qualified university/college, I will lose the CESG grants and all investment interest, and I cannot roll over it into my RRSP like I could if I were to have a self-directed RESP.

In case of your child doesn't go to a qualified university/college, you may lose the grants, but not necessary for your investment interest. You have the following choices:
(1) Transfer to other children. Nothing to lose, neither the CESG.
(2) You are encouraged to transfer them into your RRSP(& Spouse’s RRSP), and the limit is $50,000.
(3) Or, receive the Accumulated Income Payment, which will be taxed at your marginal tax rate plus an additional tax of 20%.

-If I quit the plan before it matures, I will be charged membership fee and all interests are gone. { 枫下论坛 rolia.net/forum }

You will lose the membership fee and the interest from the CESG, but you can keep the interests from the principal, and you need pay tax on your behalf.

-If my child only finishes 1 year of college, I will lose the payout for the rest 3 years. My child has to finish all of the 4 year education to get all the promised income. I don't have the flexibility to decide how to withdrawl funds like I would have in a self-directed plan.
Your child need enroll in a post-secondary school for at least 3 weeks to qualify the scholarship in each of the rest 3 years. If the child refuse to take a 3 weeks course, the money is lost.

-You cannot guarantee 10% return. The 10% return in your brochure are historical returns, future return will depend on future interest rates and the number of people quitting the plan.

Nobody can guarantee the return of the investment. For the pooled RESP, there is another item affects the total return: Donation. For example, (1)BMO credit card, (2) C.S.T. EDUCATION CHARITY (3)….

********* the funny thing about these pooled plan is that they never publish a breakdown of their returns, i.e. how much is from investment, how much is from people who withdrawl/quit in the middle, how much is from CESG, etc. they never publish a MER for their investment portfolio. the payout and contribution plan is calculated by acturary assumptions, however, there is no disclosure of those assumptions. ****************

-How much commission you get from selling each unit :-)

The commission depends on the level of the agent, and I am not the right person to answer this question, maybe I can tell you in private. -:)

********* you sound like multi-level marketing - maybe you are not. however, i advise you not to argue with anyone associated with the three letter "CFA" in finance subjects. you are much less sophisticated. ********更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
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Replies, comments and Discussions:

  • 枫下家园 / 理财投资税务 / 兼听则明。Pooled RESP Plan的几大缺点包括:1,投资对象受限制,(大概就是不能投资在股票市场)2,如果停止交钱就可能损失全部本金 3,管理费用难以准确计算 4,难以预测回报
    本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛原文见URL
    所谓的可能获得的“捐献”其实是那些因为付不出每年的contribution,导致被没收的本金?这条比较危险,还是Self Direct吧。

    There are two types of RESP available today:the self-directed RESP and the pooled RESP.

    Self-directed RESPs

    A self-directed RESP is a trust account set up with a broker or a mutual fund company. The contributor may contribute regular monthly amounts or invest lump-sum amounts, as he or she is able. I prefer the mutual fund RESP, because the amounts contributed are too small to build a sufficiently diversified portfolio of stocks and bonds. When the child is small, the investment horizon is long enough to invest the money in equity. I would place a large amount of the portfolio in foreign equity. The foreign content limits of the RRSP do not apply to the RESP. When the child is closer to university age, the investments need to be adjusted. When the investment horizon is less than five years, most of the portfolio needs to be moved into a lower risk investment, such as a balanced fund. About 18 months before the money is needed, it should be moved into money market. One of the advantages of a self-directed RESP is that you can keep track of your portfolio, as mutual fund values are published daily. Also, if the family faces a time of financial hardship you can stop contributing, without losing growth or capital.

    The cost of a Self-directed RESP equals the trustee fee charged and the expense of purchasing and managing the investments. Most mutual fund companies have waived the trustee fees for the RESP. Management fees are published in the prospectus. MERs of the funds I use vary from 0.65% to 2.78%. Keep in mind that the investor receives far more value if the manager invests in global equities than if someone is purchasing T-bills or Canadian bonds. I sell RESPs from a number of mutual fund companies at 0% front-end load.

    Pooled RESPs

    Pooled plans are also called education trusts, scholarship trusts or groups plans. Most pooled plans work like this. The parent purchases units or partial units in the plan and pays a fixed monthly fee. The education trust invests the money in non-equity investments. The education trust pays trustee fees, depository charges, administration expenses, sales commissions and marketing expenses. The growth of the investments minus the expenses is allocated to the units. Traditionally, if a family dropped out of the plan, the education trust would return the deposits paid, but not the growth. I refer to this drop out as attrition. Attrition is a benefit to the remaining families. When the child reaches age 18 or older and attends a qualifying institution, the education trust pays a fixed number of scholarships, usually three or four.

    The size of the scholarship is determined by the following factors:

    The return on investment. By law the pooled plans are limited to investing in government bonds, GICs, insured first mortgages and treasury bills.
    The administration expenses. It costs money to manage the pool of funds and to market the units. The lower the expenses, the higher the return.
    The amount of attrition; the more families drop out the better for the remaining beneficiaries.
    Some pooled RESPs are trying to increase the pool by entering into commercial fundraising activities, such as affinity credit cards.
    In the past some pooled plans have produced returns of 13% per year. Will the plans be able to repeat this performance? Today's pooled plans face two challenges. Firstly, we may not see the high interest rates we had in the 1980s. Secondly, as the number of eligible institutions is increasing and some pooled plans are making provision for return of growth I expect the return from attrition to be substantially lower. A plan providing for attrition may still produce 10 % return, depending on how many families will drop out. 13% is optimistic. I expect the returns of a pooled plan allowing for the return of growth to produce results similar to that of a self-directed RESP with a mutual fund company containing a bond fund, or combination of income funds.

    Pooled plans have a number of limitations.

    They are limited to securities that are likely to produce a low return on investment.

    For those who receive scholarships attrition benefits may add to the returns to bring them closer to the returns made on a more diversified portfolio, provided a sufficient number of families drop out of the pool. It is difficult to project the anticipated return, since you do not know how much the attrition will be.

    The parents' capital is subjected to attrition risk. Parents may lose all or a substantial part of capital if they discontinue contributions to the plan. Advertising may state "the capital is secure and will be returned, if parents withdraw, minus fees". This deduction of fees can create a mean deferred sales charge. I did the math on one plan where forfeiture of fees amounted to a deferred sales charge of 100% in the first year, 77% after 2 years and still 12% after 12 years.

    It is almost impossible to calculate the management expense ratio of a pooled RESP. Even if the pooled RESP is organized as a non-profit organization, management fees can exceed the MER of commercial mutual funds that invest in T-bills, mortgages and bonds. The MER of most, but not all, equity funds tends to be higher. It also takes more effort to manage an equity fund than it takes to manage an income fund.

    Pooled RESPs are regressive in that the children who receive scholarships benefit from the contributions made by less fortunate families. The two most common reasons for attrition are financial hardship and lack of academic skills. Allocation of funds from less fortunate families to families with more resources is socially undesirable.更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
    • 有趣,还有这样的pooled RESP,不过RESP一年能contribute才那么些钱,能折腾出什么来呀?为什么大家这么热衷呀?
    • Too long, but ---1,投资对象限制限制在有稳定回报的方向,(确实不能投资在股票市场)2,如果停止交钱就可能损失Membership fee 3,管理费用是总收益的1% 4,因为(1)的原因,回报很容易预测,社会捐款部分难以预测
      所以说你列的"Pooled RESP Plan的几大缺点包括" 好像是它的优点吗?
      等我有时间, 再详细说明.
      • 受限制是优点?因为经济困难停止交钱就有可能损失全部本金也是优点?投资在债券市场的基金的管理费都不到1%,股票指数基金的管理费也多不到1%,为什么你那个管理费比较高?
        你说的你代表卖的那个RESP是不是就是这种pooled的?是就不奇怪了。
        • 请看偶的经典力作。另外,哪位MATURE FUND DX 给他讲一下基金的管理费是多少。
      • 管理费用是本金的1/2 of 1% for Optional Plan, 1% for Millennium Plan.
    • What is "被没收的本金"? What is "本金"? 同学,继续努力吧. After reading your note, I believe you need keep learning.
      • "The parents' capital is subjected to attrition risk. Parents may lose all or a substantial part of capital if they discontinue contributions to the plan"。难道你一定要把这里的capital翻译成membership fee吗?
        • 你再问问他们家membership fee是多少你就不奇怪了。很多mem fee贵的离谱的。
          • 估计这又是这种RESP计划的一个套。是不是象他们这样的Agent的收入主要来自membership fee的提成或者是没收本金的提成?
            • 如果我是下套的就告诉你我们的每个单位的mem fee可以算成整个pool的百分比,然后按百份比给收益,mem fee分期付款多少期,什么什么
        • 让我来教教你:(以0岁小孩为例) 本金/capital:19(UNIT)* 9.50 $/UNIT/Month * 204Month = $36,822 Enrollment/Membership fee: 19(UNIT) * 200 $/UNIT = $3,800
          • capital和membership fee 不是一个概念:(1) $36,822 <> $3,800 ------(2)$3,800 在小孩上学后,就归还。
            • 3,800不算离谱,才占11%
            • 3800*(1.-08)^19 - 3800 === 12599.66
              • 高人! ======>>改为16年更精确些3800*(1.-08)^16 - 3800 = 9281.58, 。而总回报将在14万左右(估计)。--偶可不想画饼。
    • how to crash the lies of a pooled resp (cst, usc, etc.) salesperson:
      本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛1. We only invest in government bonds, which are safe and guaranteed. ==> Only the bond principal and interest is guaranteed - do not confuse with the total investment return. You still face interest rate risk. When interest rates go up (now it is nearly zero, the only way it can go is UP), bond fund will lose money. If interest rate stay the same (stay low at current level), you cannot have a high return.
      2. We have over 10% historical return. ==> That return has to be put into the historical context - In the 80s interest rates were over 10%. Now it is way lower. The historical performance is also partly due to the number of drop-outs from the pool. If I take the CESG grant of 400 into the picture, and if I invest 2000 per year, I get 20% automatically. No bond investments can beat 20%.
      3. We are non-profit. ==> That doesn't mean you are efficient. Typically, non-profit organisations are not as efficient as private entities.
      4. Please clarify the following:
      -If my child doesn't go to a qualified university/college, I will lose the CESG grants and all investment interest, and I cannot roll over it into my RRSP like I could if I were to have a self-directed RESP.
      -If I quit the plan before it matures, I will be charged membership fee and all interests are gone.
      -If my child only finishes 1 year of college, I will lose the payout for the rest 3 years. My child has to finish all of the 4 year education to get all the promised income. I don't have the flexibility to decide how to withdrawl funds like I would have in a self-directed plan.
      -You cannot guarantee 10% return. The 10% return in your brochure are historical returns, future return will depend on future interest rates and the number of people quitting the plan.
      -How much commission you get from selling each unit :-)更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
      • The Answer.
        • let me teach you something:
          本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛Q1. We only invest in government bonds, which are safe and guaranteed. ==> Only the bond principal and interest is guaranteed - do not confuse with the total investment return. You still face interest rate risk. When interest rates go up (now it is nearly zero, the only way it can go is UP), bond fund will lose money. If interest rate stay the same (stay low at current level), you cannot have a high return.

          A1:The pooled RESP is not only invest in government bonds, other choices are: (1)Debt securities(20% max in Variable Rate Securiteis) issued or guaranteed by government; (2) First Mortgates (3) Government T_Bill; (4) GIC; (5) Debt securities by AAA Public Corporations.

          **************** all of these are debt securities, they belong to the same asset class and they perform in a similar way ******************

          Don’t understand why bond fund will lose money, after interest goes up. The interest rate was mostly up in the past 30 years.

          **************** this is basic financial knowledge, here is a simple example. say you bought a 5% 10-year bond at a price of 100 today. one year later interest rate goes to 10%. your 5% bond (9 years now) will be worth less than 100. why? because with 100 people can buy a new 10% bond, which retuens them 10 each year instead of 5... see, you have a lot lot to learn if you don't even understand this. pooled resp salespeople are not well trained at all. *******************

          Q2. We have over 10% historical return. ==> That return has to be put into the historical context - In the 80s interest rates were over 10%. Now it is way lower. The historical performance is also partly due to the number of drop-outs from the pool. If I take the CESG grant of 400 into the picture, and if I invest 2000 per year, I get 20% automatically. No bond investments can beat 20%.

          A2:You are correct: (1)over 10% is just a Historical return, and nobody (unless he lies) can guarantee the return of the investment, except GIC; and (2)No bond investments can beat 20%.

          Q3. We are non-profit. ==> That doesn't mean you are efficient. Typically, non-profit organisations are not as efficient as private entities.

          A3: Do you know how much the CEO gets from the company? In some dot com companies, they take as much as 50% of the profit into their own pocket. And it’s legal --by law.

          In this non-profit Foundation, all the Chairman and Directors are volunteers, they don’t get a cent from the parents.

          My personal guess is that they are already rich enough, and don’t care about the money. Same reason applies for those donations, which Chinese people don’t understand at all.

          ************* the volunteers are not involved in the investment decision process. in a non-profit, investment managers get poorly paid. you don't attract top talent with low salary. mediocre people produce mediocre results. i'm not saying the dot-comers are good, but talented people will demand higher pay. *************

          Q4. Please clarify the following:

          A4: Sure, here they are:

          -If my child doesn't go to a qualified university/college, I will lose the CESG grants and all investment interest, and I cannot roll over it into my RRSP like I could if I were to have a self-directed RESP.

          In case of your child doesn't go to a qualified university/college, you may lose the grants, but not necessary for your investment interest. You have the following choices:
          (1) Transfer to other children. Nothing to lose, neither the CESG.
          (2) You are encouraged to transfer them into your RRSP(& Spouse’s RRSP), and the limit is $50,000.
          (3) Or, receive the Accumulated Income Payment, which will be taxed at your marginal tax rate plus an additional tax of 20%.

          -If I quit the plan before it matures, I will be charged membership fee and all interests are gone. { 枫下论坛 rolia.net/forum }

          You will lose the membership fee and the interest from the CESG, but you can keep the interests from the principal, and you need pay tax on your behalf.

          -If my child only finishes 1 year of college, I will lose the payout for the rest 3 years. My child has to finish all of the 4 year education to get all the promised income. I don't have the flexibility to decide how to withdrawl funds like I would have in a self-directed plan.
          Your child need enroll in a post-secondary school for at least 3 weeks to qualify the scholarship in each of the rest 3 years. If the child refuse to take a 3 weeks course, the money is lost.

          -You cannot guarantee 10% return. The 10% return in your brochure are historical returns, future return will depend on future interest rates and the number of people quitting the plan.

          Nobody can guarantee the return of the investment. For the pooled RESP, there is another item affects the total return: Donation. For example, (1)BMO credit card, (2) C.S.T. EDUCATION CHARITY (3)….

          ********* the funny thing about these pooled plan is that they never publish a breakdown of their returns, i.e. how much is from investment, how much is from people who withdrawl/quit in the middle, how much is from CESG, etc. they never publish a MER for their investment portfolio. the payout and contribution plan is calculated by acturary assumptions, however, there is no disclosure of those assumptions. ****************

          -How much commission you get from selling each unit :-)

          The commission depends on the level of the agent, and I am not the right person to answer this question, maybe I can tell you in private. -:)

          ********* you sound like multi-level marketing - maybe you are not. however, i advise you not to argue with anyone associated with the three letter "CFA" in finance subjects. you are much less sophisticated. ********更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
          • I don't believe CFA is good at RESP.